Should i use a framework? need to save time and build complex layouts

[nullbytes]

Hi friends,
I have been designing websites for last 10 months. During that period, i worked with almost 20 clients and designed more than 30 websites. I know html,css,jquery, php(not advanced) and wordpress customization. It takes much time and a lot of efforts to build a website with complex layout. I need my sites to be visually aesthetic too.

What i need is,
reducing working time.
Building cross browser compatible sites.
I am weak at responsive design, so it will be great if the framework has responsive feature.
I will be able to build as complex layout as i need.
I need a framework that is versatile, and extendable.

My strengths are,
I know css very well.
I have designed many sites using css3.

Should i use a framework to boost up my productivity? I have done a little research and wondering maybe twitter bootstrap could be a good choice.

Looking forward to your suggestion my friends.

 

[Phreaddee]

without seeing the quality of the sites you are doing, it would be hard to judge where you are at, and if this is the best approach for you. however over 30 sites in 10 months, says to me you're pumping them out about one to two a fortnight?
At that rate, and as a beginner, I'd have to deduce that they are relatively basic sites.

back in the good old days I used a framework called 960.gs for where I was at, and what I knew that was OK. the thing was the more I learned about css the more I realised it was hindering me. A framework can be helpful but you must learn what it is actually doing, or you'll always need to rely on the framework, and in effect become a "one trick pony".

Media queries are a pretty large component of CSS, and if you "know" CSS well like you claim it should be a no brainer. simply put...

/* put all your generic styles here */

@media all and (min-width:320px) {
/* put your mobile styles here */
}

@media all and (min-width:640px) {
/* put your tablet styles here */
}

@media all and (min-width:960px) {
/* put your desktop styles here */
}

(obviously they are just example breakpoints, write your own to suit your own design)

I've used the twitter bootstrap myself twice. both times I spent more time "customising" it then I would have if I had just started from scratch.

as for productivity. if you've done 30 sites at least find the good bits in them all. keep the snippets, use them in future sites.

the best framework to use is one which you develop yourself, over time. use your own initiative to create unique and complex layouts that you innately understand. (because you've actually created it)

as for cross browser. its really only ie8 thats the problem child. and even that is not that difficult to get working if you've coded your site well.

as for the visual side of things. again that's CSS coming to the party. mixed with a good design eye. you've either got it or you don't with design - pretty much.

 

[ronaldroe]

the thing was the more I learned about css the more I realised it was hindering me. A framework can be helpful but you must learn what it is actually doing, or you'll always need to rely on the framework, and in effect become a "one trick pony".

This is all the answer you'll ever need. I, too once used 960gs. I stopped using it for the same reason. I've messed with Bootstrap, H5BP and Bones as well. I found them more cumbersome than they're worth. I've found over time that no matter how complex the layout, there's really no substitute for my own cleanly written code. And, for all the naysayers, I actually do find it faster to code it myself.

It's really more a game of mentally breaking the site down into the pieces and then coding it out from there. Write the whole HTML structure and then begin to work out what goes where and how. There were a few times early on that I just printed out my comps, grabbed a Sharpie and drew boxes around everything and made notes in the margins.

 

[chrishirst]

This is all the answer you'll ever need. .....
I've found over time that no matter how complex the layout, there's really no substitute for my own cleanly written code. And, for all the naysayers, I actually do find it faster to code it myself.

With you ONE HUNDRED PERCENT on that. I find the "grid systems" and "frameworks" are, being polite here, less than intuitive and the mass of redundant code they add in, makes it a nightmare for "debugging".

It's really more a game of mentally breaking the site down into the pieces and then coding it out from there. Write the whole HTML structure and then begin to work out what goes where and how. There were a few times early on that I just printed out my comps, grabbed a Sharpie and drew boxes around everything and made notes in the margins.

Pretty much the same here, over the years I have developed a skill/intuition/perception/whatever of being able to calculate dimensions without resorting to pencil and paper any more.

I don't design simply because I have no artistic flair, but I can convert a design into a layout/template. HTML/CSS layouts require logic and mathematic skills, and if you practice enough it becomes intuitive and you can 'see' the structure before you fire up whatever text editor you use. My 'weapon of choice' is Geany which has the advantage of being the same whether it's running on my Windows box or my Linux box.

 

[ronaldroe]

Same here. I just comes to you after a while.

Without turning this into an editor thread, I hadn't seen Geany before. A bit too in depth for me right now, though. I use Sublime Text 2 pretty much exclusively, though I don't think it would really work for some of the stuff you do. Have you checked out Aptana? I used it for a while and left it because it was a lot like what Geany looks to be.

 

[chrishirst]

Yeah I use Aptana for those 'five minute' jobs that turn into a lot more, where the site management comes in useful, as it saves switching in and out of FileZilla.

 

[Edge]

you've either got it or you don't with design - pretty much.

I used to think that - but I'd rephrase that to 'You've either got the potential or you don't. I've seen junior designers start off by kicking out some god-awful designs at first and then over the period of about a year the designs improved a huge amount. The interesting thing is at the time they can't see their designs are bad but a year later they can.

 

[chrishirst]

I used to think that - but I'd rephrase that to 'You've either got the potential or you don't.

Exactly! Not everybody can drop a load of part full paint tins and turn out a Jackson Pollock

People who have the artistic potential are drawn to becoming designers so they will improve with practice, it is experience that makes anyone who is 'good' in any profession become 'great'.

 

[notarypublic]

I've been working with Twitter Bootstrap lately.

It depends on the kind of sites you want to build, really. There's a sliding scale between speed on one end, and customization on the other. Unless you've worked with Bootstrap a lot, it can be a bear if you try to do something with it that it wasn't meant for (a full screen site with off-centered content, for example).

I guess what I'm trying to say is, if you don't want to re-invent the wheel.. don't. But if you're trying to make a square, it's faster/easier to make a square from scratch than to bend a wheel into a shape it wasn't designed for.

 

[Brian Angel]

I have a .. from lack of a better term.. a framework I created I use, more like a "frankenwork" if you will. Just took things that I use.. personally over and over again, and went from there. It’s based on 360 and up Sass implementation, as I like Sass, but didn’t want to cut it up and well, they did.

And I agree that using a lot of frameworks, I’Il spend more time tweaking it out than anything else. I do some freelance work for a team who uses wordpress themes a lot, have to spend more time tweaking out that code to do what they want to do than if they just let me do it from start.

So, moral of the story.. well for me at least.. Frameworks are awesome when there the one I made and know how to use myself.