Help needed from a volunteer WEB/player DEVELOPER/programmer (Charity project)

Discussion in 'Programming' started by TalentedSingers, Jul 23, 2013.

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  1. TalentedSingers

    TalentedSingers New Member

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    You know, the problem is, if I would not be concerned with the implementation of the features and functions, the website would not be successfull because the website would be similar to the thousands of websites on internet. And that's why the result would be zero: Nobody would get to know the beginning talented singers because not the big number of viewers would watch the website.

    I have a cool experience from YouTube. So I know what people want.

    Those two things are the minimum so that the project has a point in make it.

    For a long time, I was looking for on internet whether something could exist already to be used to get the project off the ground WITHOUT needing to be coded, debugged, recoded, etc. etc. but NOTHING I found. Only players with one video or with limited number of videos, and with repeated videos only = shits. And no such gallery that would be showing a just playing singer (and the past ones) with the option to put there a picture with links, either.

    These two things are the minimum so that the project has a point in make it to be unique. These two thing are the core of the project.
     
  2. chrishirst

    chrishirst Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Messages:
    2,675
    Nope, as I said YOUR concern is with the project OVERVIEW not the individual nuts and bolts that hold it together.

    Here again you know what you want something to do BUT you do not know enough to work out if something can be made to do what you want without starting at ground zero.

    So you you think that "Internet Radio Stations" and streaming video systems such as NetFlix have a real person sat at a control desk queuing up the videos?

    Have you not heard of such things as the Helix DNA server? Which IS pretty much what you are talking about.
     
  3. TalentedSingers

    TalentedSingers New Member

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    24
    You said:
    "...Nope, as I said YOUR concern is with the project OVERVIEW not the individual nuts and bolts that hold it together..."


    All the time I have been doing the project overview. I still have new and new and new ideas how to make the project better and better. But the core of the project is cool and need not be changed. If you think something different, please, say exactly what.

    You said:
    "...Here again you know what you want something to do BUT you do not know enough to work out if something can be made to do what you want without starting at ground zero..."

    Yes. That's the problem. :( P.S. "starting at ground zero" is not problem for me. The ground zero is the current condition of that empty website. :rolleyes:

    You said:
    "...So you you think that "Internet Radio Stations" and streaming video systems such as NetFlix have a real person sat at a control desk queuing up the videos?...the Helix DNA server..."


    That's misunderstanding. I know the systems do exist. But nothing exists what I am able to PREPARE to use because I do not have the talent for such things. Maximum what I am able to do is to upload on my website simple things that are already made and READY to use (for example: JW Player, etc.). Such SIMPLE and freeware things do not exist for my project. (Or do you think, to "PREPARE" "the Helix DNA server" to use, is so simple and will make all those two things (the player and the gallerry)? I don't think so.)


    You sound like a great expert with a great experience, knowledge, skills. (I mean it seriously.) To make those two things would take you the time I need for the need to urinate (figuratively speaking). :D I feel you want to push me to start to make such things but....no talent....no chance. :(
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2013
  4. chrishirst

    chrishirst Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Messages:
    2,675
    Exactly, YOU do not have the necessary skills, know-how or experience to work out what you can use to start the project off.

    You start with what you CAN use and what is available 'off the shelf', from what sparse details there are I can tell you this is NOT a 0 - 100MPH in 10s project and is most definitely NOT a "spare time" project as was pointed out in post #2.

    You want it finished and working before the full spec has even been written and the layout started.
     
  5. TalentedSingers

    TalentedSingers New Member

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    24
    You said:

    "...Exactly, YOU do not have the necessary skills, know-how or experience to work out what you can use to start the project off..."


    What do you mean with: "what you can use to start the project off"? What do you mean with: "the project"? Do you mean to make the player and the gallery? Or to run the website and to be adding new videos and the pictures/links? Of course, I am not able to make the player and the gallery. But after the empty player and the empty gallery will be ready to use on the website, I will be adding the videos, pictures, links.

    You said:
    "...Not "spare time" project..."

    Yes. It is. Why not? It does not matter the work will take, for example, half of year or so, if someone will work on it, one hour weekly, anytime the programmer has free time and the good mood, for example. (I am talking about the SIMPLIFIED version.)


    You said:
    "...You want it finished and working before the full spec has even been written and the layout started..."


    No.
    I said, if a programmer wants to work on this project, let's talk in details, step by step. I will be telling you what spec and layout I want, and you will be saying what is possible and what not, and we will find the ways with this way. Simple. :) By the way, I already made a detailed picture/draft of the layout. Would you like to see it?
     
  6. chrishirst

    chrishirst Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Messages:
    2,675
    BUT even know BEFORE anyone has the brief you ARE arguing with the people you may need to actually do the work! If you do this at this stage, before anyone has said 'count me in', what are you going to do when a developer suggests that you go along a different route to what you have envisaged, simply because they 'see' a potential problem further ahead on the route you have suggested.

    Programmers are a bit like chess players, always thinking a few 'moves' in front always analysing the possible scenarios available to reach a particular goal, and the 'best' route, in therms of resources may not be the obvious one.
     
  7. chrishirst

    chrishirst Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Messages:
    2,675
    PS:

    Being a perfectionist and/or considering that 'your way' is always the right way, is rarely good for keeping a 'team' motivated.
     
  8. TalentedSingers

    TalentedSingers New Member

    Messages:
    24
    You said:
    "...BUT even know BEFORE anyone has the brief you ARE arguing with the people..."


    Generally about me:

    - I always say what I want (I am open minded). (If I do not do a business.) (In this case I am open minded because I and a programmer should know each other views about the project, at the beginning.)

    - It does not mean I want to argue.

    - Usually it means I say my view as a topic to discuss about, to find the best ways/results for a problem.

    - I am not a blind sheep to do something just because someone wants so, but I do things because someone tells me concrete good/right/correct reasons/information. This is why I am saying my views to get the information.

    - Yes, if some negative non-constructive post, I say: a timewaster. Because I am NOT coming here to argue but to work (to move things ahead). (Negative constructive views are welcome. I do so, as well. Because it helps to find mistakes.)


    "...you ARE arguing with the people...If you do this at this stage, before anyone has said 'count me in', what are you going to do when a developer suggests that you go along a different route to what you have envisaged, simply because they 'see' a potential problem further ahead on the route you have suggested...."


    I would do this:

    1) I would want to hear details why he would think I would go along a different route.

    2) I would want to hear details about the potential problem.

    3) I would want to hear options to reach the same original goal (but with a different way) to get round the potential problem.

    4) In the end I would have to make a decision:
    I would do what I wanted to do OR:
    I would make a compromise (some third way) OR:
    I would accept the way from the programmer.

    (If a programmer would ask me to help him with HIS project, the one would make the final decision because it would be his project, not mine. I only would be saying my views to help him to make a correct decision.)


    You said:
    "...Programmers are a bit like chess players, always thinking a few 'moves' in front always analysing the possible scenarios available to reach a particular goal, and the 'best' route, in therms of resources may not be the obvious one..."

    It is very welcome if a programmer always thinking a few 'moves' in front always analysing the possible scenarios available to reach a particular goal. But concerning a goal of a project, the goal is not so clear unlike chess players where the goal is very clear. That's why a programmer should clearly understand what is the owner's goal of his project. In therms of resources, I am not going to work on some goal that would be quite changed / different from the original goal.


    You said:
    "...Being a perfectionist and/or considering that 'your way' is always the right way, is rarely good for keeping a 'team' motivated..."


    You are absolutely right. But on the other hand, you should also think of an owner's motivation of his project. I really would not have any motivation to work daily, for all the rest of my life, on a website that I would not like just because a "team" would force me to change very important details that make my project unique / unrivalled. I will be "wearing the shoes" for all the rest of my life. I am not going to wear any shoes that will be too tight and pinching me for all the rest of my life. That's why I prefer to go barefoot (no project would be made) to wear any shoes that will be too tight and pinching me for all the rest of my life. That's why, I am saying, first of all, let's talk about details, step by step, before the codes will be written.


    You said:
    "...or considering that 'your way' is always the right way..."

    Sometimes it is difficult to say what is the right way. Because some things are SUBJECTIVE and some things are OBJECTIVE. To wear shoes is very SUBJECTIVE/personal thing. ;)
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2013
  9. chrishirst

    chrishirst Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Messages:
    2,675
    Not really suitable for discussion over a public forum, simply to protect what is currently your intellectual property rights to the idea. Even though such projects exist already, if you truly have an idea that is sufficiently different you need to protect it from being stolen.
     
  10. TalentedSingers

    TalentedSingers New Member

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    24
    Of course, I will be discussing the details by emails, only. ;)

    P.S. There's no such website around the world. (YouTube and whatever is tooooo far from my project. They just are boring storages.) My project is unique, unrivalled. :D To understand why, you have to know the details.
     
  11. chrishirst

    chrishirst Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Messages:
    2,675
    Emails are fine for two or three to keep in sync, Why not throw up a copy of FengOffice on a domain and document the project so you can invite people to offer help and suggestions?
     
  12. TalentedSingers

    TalentedSingers New Member

    Messages:
    24
    Do you know about more than 3 people who would like to work on the project? I do not know.

    I do have ready empty website where they could work together, to see their work in the real time and the coordination can be done by emails.

    It is too early to show the details to many people who have not showed their serious interest on the basis of those 15 articles of the project, yet, even. It would be the same like I would discuss the details here over a public forum.

    Here on this forum I am inviting people to help.

    Yes, "thousands" of people are willing to be suggesting what ever, but NO action, yet. That's the problem. That testing website still is empty.

    If someone has the strong SERIOUS interest to help, let's talk by emails about the basic CONCRETE technical strategy of the project, first, and then, step by step to work in that empty testing website (I'll say username and password) and at the same time let's talk by emails. If you know about more than 3 people, be their technical/expert manager. Me and you can talk in details by email, step by step. Each of us will be watching the testing website (whether the changes = each step is done according to the discussion or not). Simple.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2013
  13. chrishirst

    chrishirst Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Messages:
    2,675
    If, as you propse, it will take "about an hour a week" you are going to need a damned sight more than three people working on it.

    Do you know how to design a GUI?
    Create an efficient, scalable database schema?
    Any HTML, CSS experience?

    There's three individual skills without even thinking about code.
     
  14. TalentedSingers

    TalentedSingers New Member

    Messages:
    24
    You said:
    "...If, as you propse, it will take "about an hour a week" you are going to need a damned sight more than three people working on it..."

    What do you mean with: "need a damned sight"?


    There are many versions how to work on the project: If one person will work on the project just and only ONE HOUR WEEKLY, anytime when he/she has the good mood, the work could be finished in one year or so.

    If a team (e.g. 10 people) would work on the project ONE HOUR WEEKLY, the website could be ready already in a few months!

    If some expert (who has tonnes of codes/scripts ready) would work on it for many hours on Saturday and on Sunday, the SIMPLIFIED version of the project could be ready already in two days because he/she would use something what is already DONE. Only he/she would change there some codes/lines to be according to my project. (Yes, it depends on how much that already done version would be similar to my project. = How many changes would be necessary.)

    You said:
    "...Do you know how to design a GUI?
    Create an efficient, scalable database schema?
    Any HTML, CSS experience?..."


    These questions are for that programmer who will work on the project.


    P.S. Yes! I was able to programme: "Hello world!" :D (But I forgot it. It was long time, several months, ago.):D
     
  15. chrishirst

    chrishirst Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Messages:
    2,675
    Now I KNOW you are clueless about coding.

    I worked on a fully featured CMS project, on my own, that was being built specifically for artists and artist managment agencies because nothing existed at the time that did all we needed, coded for ASP because we ran Windows servers at the time, after EIGHT YEARS of spending a LOT more than "an hour a day" there were STILL many features that needed to be completed, and that did have multiple queue video and audio players, user profiles, artist profiles, multiple user levels and much more. I even wrote my own templating system and a BBCode/Smarty style templating language along with a text editor, template and style sheet editor, because these things didn't exist for ASP systems.

    We have since converted them over to WordPress because WP3.5 has everything that is required for these kind of websites without needing to build the chassis before inventing the wheel as well.

    Trust me, no matter HOW big your ideas are, or how radical you think it is, a usable, configurable solution will already exist.
     
  16. TalentedSingers

    TalentedSingers New Member

    Messages:
    24
    The action

    Yes, right now you have confirmed what I said:

    "(The time of the work)...depends on how much that already done version would be similar to my project. = How many changes would be necessary.)...."

    You said: "...I worked on a fully featured CMS project, on my own, that was being built specifically for artists and artist managment agencies because nothing existed at the time that did all we needed, coded for ASP because we ran Windows servers at the time, after EIGHT YEARS of spending a LOT more than "an hour a day" there were STILL many features that needed to be completed,...."

    So, your project took a long time because you had to make MANY changes because that already done version was tooooooo far from your project.

    Now, you have told me (probably already for the second time) VERY GOOD NEWS :) :

    "...WP3.5 has everything that is required for these kind of websites without needing to build the chassis before inventing the wheel as well......Trust me, no matter HOW big your ideas are, or how radical you think it is, a usable, configurable solution will already exist.....":):)

    Can you, please, upload it on my testing empty website (I will tell you the username and password) so that we can have a look what is needed to be changed (step by step) according to my project. (I will send you picture/draft of the layout I want.) We will be able to talk concretely in details at the same time making the changes directly there.:) Simple.

    P.S> I've sent you PM, right now.
    P.S. How can I send you the draft/picture of the layout? There is not any attachment button in the email box of webdesignforum. Please, send me email message to my private address (the address you will find in the email I've sent you), so that I can send you the picture/draft of the layout, from my email box.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2013
  17. chrishirst

    chrishirst Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Messages:
    2,675
    Nope! NOTHING existed at the time that even came close to what was needed. Wordpress and Joomla hadn't even been released. This was late 1999, early 2000 when the project started

    The odd CMS that existed were cumbersome systems that didn't run particularly well on Windows boxes so I started coding my own, building on various code libraries I had built for earlier, simpler projects. And we used it successfully for several sites until M$ made it harder and harder to use 'legacy' ASP.

    The reason it took so long, is NOT because I had to make "many changes", the way I have always written code makes it very easy to modify or 're-purpose' but because I had to create and test things by getting a third party to use the new functions before they went live. I also had to do some real work in between.
     
  18. TalentedSingers

    TalentedSingers New Member

    Messages:
    24
    So, it was even worse = more difficult work! You are a pioneer! My respect!

    Well, now you have a chance to build a website that will change the history. I have cool ideas.

    P.S. How can I send you the draft/picture of the layout? There is not any attachment button in the email box of webdesignforum. Please, send me email message to my private address (the address you will find in the email I've sent you), so that I can send you the picture/draft of the layout, from my email box.
     
  19. leroy30

    leroy30 New Member

    Messages:
    485
    You know, asking complete strangers for months of dedication to support YOUR cause (whether it benefit others or not) is surely asking for conflict.

    Surely you'd do better to find someone you know than submit postings in forums? For starters; we don't trust random people pitching their projects to us in exchange for loss of income.

    Perhaps a hobbiest or someone wanting to do probono or someone who genuinely believes in your cause; but is this REALLY the best place to find that person?

    And in your own best interest as well. I mean, you're confident that you'll find someone on the internet who you can trust, work with as a partner, actually knows what they say they know, isn't going to write back doors into your product so they can shut you down remotely at a ransom?

    All I'm saying is be careful, and also try to respect that we don't know you and so become very skeptical at requests for financial help. Which, when it comes down to it, is what you are after.

    Oh; and you say it is for charity but that doesn't mean you won't make money from it. So who is going to spend thousands with the lawyers to ensure we have a great contract in place that says if you sell this for a million bucks after three months that I get my share?

    Just sayin.

    Good luck none the less. You'll need it (even if you do find someone, you're likely still going to need plenty!)

    Regards,
    Le-roy
     
  20. TalentedSingers

    TalentedSingers New Member

    Messages:
    24
    leroy30:

    You said:
    "...You know, asking complete strangers for months of dedication to support YOUR cause (whether it benefit others or not) is surely asking for conflict..."

    Why? There are many volunteer programmers who work on charity projects. My charity project just is one of thousands of charity projects.







    You said:
    "...Surely you'd do better to find someone you know than submit postings in forums?..."

    Ha ha ha, If I know "someone", yes I would not need to post my posts on forums across all the internet. But the problem is I do not know "someone". So, I have to do A LOT OF posting across all the internet to find "someone". There is no other option/alternative for me.








    You said:
    "...For starters; we don't trust random people pitching their projects to us in exchange for loss of income..."

    But that's your problem you do not trust random people. In many cases you surely do right because many of them are fraudsters / con men but in some cases you do wrong someone and spoil great projects. A honest person who really wants to find some volunteer programmer is forced to use proxy servers, various emails, nicknames, names, etc. to post the post across all internet to find a volunteer programmer (like in my case I am forced to do use proxy servers, various emails, nicknames, names, etc. to post the post on many websites across all internet BECAUSE they don't trust random people). (You surely must agree with me, to post one post on just and only ONE website means less than 0.0000001 % of chance to be successful. Only if you post the post on MANY websites, you can get some reasonable percentage of chance.)








    You said:
    "...Perhaps a hobbiest or someone wanting to do probono or someone who genuinely believes in your cause; but is this REALLY the best place to find that person?..."


    Yes, it's about a hobby, the passion for programming and the passion for helping people to do a good deed. (In my case it is the passion for singing / music and the passion to help unknown talented singers.) Do you know any better place than forums? If yes, say it.








    You said:
    "...And in your own best interest as well. I mean, you're confident that you'll find someone on the internet who you can trust, work with as a partner, actually knows what they say they know, isn't going to write back doors into your product so they can shut you down remotely at a ransom?..."


    No. I really am NOT confident that I'll find someone on the internet who I can trust, work with as a partner, actually know what they say they know, isn't going to write back doors into my product so they can shut me down remotely at a ransom. But...There is no any other option / alternative.







    You said:
    "...All I'm saying is be careful, and also try to respect that we don't know you and so become very skeptical at requests for financial help. Which, when it comes down to it, is what you are after..."

    I am not in any expectations. I just want to do the good deed. (The idea of the charity project came on my mind after I saw UNIQUE voices on YouTube but almost NO viewes of their channels and milllions of views on VEVO commercial shiits channels where usually sing standard voices or even poor voices.) If some volunteer programmer will join me, OK. We can help unknown talented singers, together. If any volunteer programmer will not join me, unknown talented singers will not get the help and many UNIQUE voices will be lost for ever. If Michael Jackson would not get the help in his career at its very first beginning, he would sing in some pubs for groups of drunk people, all his life, and the world never could get to know him, the world never could enjoy his UNIQUE voice. Simple. It's not about me. It's about the unknown talented singers. If I do not get any volunteer programmer, I only will have a benefit of it because I will have more free time for other my activities.







    You said:
    "...Oh; and you say it is for charity but that doesn't mean you won't make money from it..."

    You are right. I will do my best to make money from it to get a capital to put the money into the project. Because I do not want the website would be on some free web hosting server for ever using limited services. I do not want the simplest version of my project, for ever. I am going to improving / upgrading the website as possible as possible. It will need "endless" / infinite money".







    You said:
    ...So who is going to spend thousands with the lawyers to ensure we have a great contract in place that says if you sell this for a million bucks after three months that I get my share?..."

    I see you do not understand what words "charity / volunteer" mean. If I work for free as a volunteer in a restaurant where homeless people eat for free, I do NOT ask any contract in place that says if some homeless will make a million bucks in the future because he/she did not die because he/she had what to eat, after three months that I get my share. I do NOT ask any contract from unknown talented singers who will be singing on my website, in place that says if any such singer becomes a millionairess because my website made her very well known, after three months that I get my share.

    An unknown empty website means NOTHING. It will depends ONLY on me what way I will run the website to make value of millions or not. Yes, I will be glad (happily surprised) if some singer who I made very well known, will remember me and will say: "I am giving you $ one million because you helped me." The programmer can just hope I will remember him/her, as well. Words "charity / volunteer" mean giving. Not expecting any financial return. Giving is not the financial investment. Because giving is a good deed, not any business.





    P.S.
    I already could have made the website because some programmers already offered me they will make a website for me for free. But the problem was the website would not be made exactly according to my project. The website would be similar to thousands of other websites. So, I refused their offers because I do not want to make the same/similar boring web storage of videos like thousands of websites are. It would just be wasting of my time to run such website because no success guaranteed to promote talented singers. To be the success guaranteed to help unknown talented singers, the website must become very popular and well known. To become very popular and well known, the website must be unique / cool. Not like thousands of boring web public storages=websites of videos.
     
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