Content Management System
- Thread starter lindseyh
- Start date
LouTheDesigner
New Member
You and I are in the same boat. CMSs were mentioned to me briefly in my senior year of school. They seem to be amazing for extensions. PHP coding is pretty much done for you.
There's a reason they weren't mentioned, they're terrible.
They're too big and too complicated. CMS's were developed by programmers who have no idea how the real world works. Most have probably never seen the outside before, since they generally spend their entire lives in a dark basement eating Poptarts and sanding their calloused finger tips.
You'd be better off learning how to write a little code yourself and designing your own "type" of CMS. All you basically need is a script to Add, Edit and Delete information to-in-from a database. Nearly all the websites I design allows the client to easily manage all the information on their website from an admin area. And when I say "easily" I'm not talking from a programmers point of view, but from your great grandma's.
In addition to business websites I also make a lot of personal websites for individuals. These often include a photo gallery, a mini-CMS, and often times a message board - all of which I designed and developed myself. The beauty of being able to do this yourself is that you get EXACTLY what you want and not what some jughead wants you to have.
Things get very very ugly when a programmer tries to design. I think we can all agree on that. If you're a young designer you would probably pick up on php very quickly. Php isn't very intuitive nor does it make much sense - making it a perfect fit for young people.
When developing a website, and especially if it will have some level of functionality to it, you should create it from the standpoint that the person you making it for has zero computer intelligence outside of knowing how to turn a computer on. This separates the developers from the mice.
Successful websites are logically laid out, easy to read, easy to navigate, easy to use. Can you find the keyword in that sentence? That's right - EASY. Not flashy, not spectacular, not mystifying, not stunning -- but easy.
The vast majority of websites exist for one purpose - to provide information. Should that be hard? Hard to add, hard to find, hard to read, hard to change or hard to get? No. Then why are so many websites just that - hard?
I'll tell you why... Designers and Developers GONE WILD! Gone MAD may be more like it. Websites and programs should be designed/developed for the least experienced user.
When a good author is writing a book he first determines the average grade level of his intended reader, then he writes on two to three grade levels below that, and in a way that doesn't compromise the integrity of the story. This gives him a large number of readers and makes him a lot of money.
It should be no different for websites. If you make it easy for your great grandma to use, then it'll be that much easier for an experienced user. I have never lost a job or had a stop payment on a check because I made a website too easy to use.
The CMS's out there now may be easy to an experienced designer or developer, but they will require a certain amount of LEARNING on the part of the person you making it for.
"Look, I don't want to have to go back to school to learn how to work this thing... I just want to get on it and GO!"
I design and develop websites that allow my clients to simply get on and go. Do you? Will you? Or will you throw together some prepackaged piece of junk, stick your name on it and tell your client that that's the best you can do?
They're too big and too complicated. CMS's were developed by programmers who have no idea how the real world works. Most have probably never seen the outside before, since they generally spend their entire lives in a dark basement eating Poptarts and sanding their calloused finger tips.
You'd be better off learning how to write a little code yourself and designing your own "type" of CMS. All you basically need is a script to Add, Edit and Delete information to-in-from a database. Nearly all the websites I design allows the client to easily manage all the information on their website from an admin area. And when I say "easily" I'm not talking from a programmers point of view, but from your great grandma's.
In addition to business websites I also make a lot of personal websites for individuals. These often include a photo gallery, a mini-CMS, and often times a message board - all of which I designed and developed myself. The beauty of being able to do this yourself is that you get EXACTLY what you want and not what some jughead wants you to have.
Things get very very ugly when a programmer tries to design. I think we can all agree on that. If you're a young designer you would probably pick up on php very quickly. Php isn't very intuitive nor does it make much sense - making it a perfect fit for young people.
When developing a website, and especially if it will have some level of functionality to it, you should create it from the standpoint that the person you making it for has zero computer intelligence outside of knowing how to turn a computer on. This separates the developers from the mice.
Successful websites are logically laid out, easy to read, easy to navigate, easy to use. Can you find the keyword in that sentence? That's right - EASY. Not flashy, not spectacular, not mystifying, not stunning -- but easy.
The vast majority of websites exist for one purpose - to provide information. Should that be hard? Hard to add, hard to find, hard to read, hard to change or hard to get? No. Then why are so many websites just that - hard?
I'll tell you why... Designers and Developers GONE WILD! Gone MAD may be more like it. Websites and programs should be designed/developed for the least experienced user.
When a good author is writing a book he first determines the average grade level of his intended reader, then he writes on two to three grade levels below that, and in a way that doesn't compromise the integrity of the story. This gives him a large number of readers and makes him a lot of money.
It should be no different for websites. If you make it easy for your great grandma to use, then it'll be that much easier for an experienced user. I have never lost a job or had a stop payment on a check because I made a website too easy to use.
The CMS's out there now may be easy to an experienced designer or developer, but they will require a certain amount of LEARNING on the part of the person you making it for.
"Look, I don't want to have to go back to school to learn how to work this thing... I just want to get on it and GO!"
I design and develop websites that allow my clients to simply get on and go. Do you? Will you? Or will you throw together some prepackaged piece of junk, stick your name on it and tell your client that that's the best you can do?
Off on a tangent, much? 
I didn't really know they existed until after I knew how to make sites either, so I can't really comment on how useful they are. But I would think that if you did it yourself you'd have a lot more fun with it. They can't really be too important if thousands of people can get by without them.
I didn't really know they existed until after I knew how to make sites either, so I can't really comment on how useful they are. But I would think that if you did it yourself you'd have a lot more fun with it. They can't really be too important if thousands of people can get by without them.
jnjc
New Member
I couldn't disagree more with JayT. I think CMS are great. I use Joomla and find it really simple to use and flexible. The scope is limitless and the ease of use is a real plus for the end user.
I don't care who writes them if it saves me having to write it, great.
I am not sure what jayT means by 'big', but I like the fact that there is a lot of scope within a good CMS package. You can decide what bits you need and what bits you don't need and trim accordingly.
Why bother, if someone else has done the work why re-invent the wheel ?
I find that a lot of what people want is already available as extension etc. If it is not exactly what someone wants then it's usually just a matter of tweaking an extension until it fits. I would feel like I was doing my clients a disservice if I charged them development time for something I could get for free.
Things get even uglier when designers try and code.
Again I couldn't disagree more, having worked with everything from COBAL to Progress 4GL I find PHP a breeze...
I think CMS is a great building block, it provides a stable base to build a custom website from. You will need to know a bit about what goes on in the guts of a package to provide a site that mets your customers requirements but once you have that knowledge there is no limit to what you can do.
As for writing your own as JayT has pontificated about, why charge your customers development time for something that already exists ? The amount of man hours people have invested in putting together CMS packages and extensions is huge and with careful research and selection there is a lot of good fruit to be picked for free.
HTH,
JC
I don't care who writes them if it saves me having to write it, great.
I am not sure what jayT means by 'big', but I like the fact that there is a lot of scope within a good CMS package. You can decide what bits you need and what bits you don't need and trim accordingly.
Why bother, if someone else has done the work why re-invent the wheel ?
I find that a lot of what people want is already available as extension etc. If it is not exactly what someone wants then it's usually just a matter of tweaking an extension until it fits. I would feel like I was doing my clients a disservice if I charged them development time for something I could get for free.
Things get even uglier when designers try and code.
Again I couldn't disagree more, having worked with everything from COBAL to Progress 4GL I find PHP a breeze...
I think CMS is a great building block, it provides a stable base to build a custom website from. You will need to know a bit about what goes on in the guts of a package to provide a site that mets your customers requirements but once you have that knowledge there is no limit to what you can do.
As for writing your own as JayT has pontificated about, why charge your customers development time for something that already exists ? The amount of man hours people have invested in putting together CMS packages and extensions is huge and with careful research and selection there is a lot of good fruit to be picked for free.
HTH,
JC
Last edited:
rarepearldesign
New Member
You weren't taught how to use one because hopefully you were taught the skills to build one.
That being said, knowing the theory and concepts of programming (web languages) or other there is an important point made already by a few people:
Why re-invent the wheel? There are many great systems out there that can do everything you need. I write/have wrote my own custom CMS systems that I give some clients because its all they need, but some others it makes sense to give them something else.
Personally, I know nothing of PHP except its another "spaghetti" scripting language that when I need to get around with it I just do, I know the fundamentals and that keeps me going with anything. I do all ASP.NET stuff when its custom work for my clients.
However, many asp.net CMS's are not open-source so I choose to use other solutions sometimes.
- WordPress and Expression Engine are fantastic.
- Joomla and Drupal are junk unless you are retained as the content editor.
- Magento is king of e-commerce, but really powerful, likely overkill for everything but real online stores.
- Joomla with an e-commerce plugin for a small store is the only time I would use it, or write my own with asp.net.
I am sure everyone has already seen my discussions with JayT already and I won't knock him, but I disagree with almost everything he has said in this thread except the fact hard core programmers usually aren't great artists. Its a left brained, right brained thing, but its not always true either.
That being said, knowing the theory and concepts of programming (web languages) or other there is an important point made already by a few people:
Why re-invent the wheel? There are many great systems out there that can do everything you need. I write/have wrote my own custom CMS systems that I give some clients because its all they need, but some others it makes sense to give them something else.
Personally, I know nothing of PHP except its another "spaghetti" scripting language that when I need to get around with it I just do, I know the fundamentals and that keeps me going with anything. I do all ASP.NET stuff when its custom work for my clients.
However, many asp.net CMS's are not open-source so I choose to use other solutions sometimes.
- WordPress and Expression Engine are fantastic.
- Joomla and Drupal are junk unless you are retained as the content editor.
- Magento is king of e-commerce, but really powerful, likely overkill for everything but real online stores.
- Joomla with an e-commerce plugin for a small store is the only time I would use it, or write my own with asp.net.
I am sure everyone has already seen my discussions with JayT already and I won't knock him, but I disagree with almost everything he has said in this thread except the fact hard core programmers usually aren't great artists. Its a left brained, right brained thing, but its not always true either.
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LouTheDesigner
New Member
You took the words right out of my mouth. I couldn't agree more.
conor
New Member
@jayT I agree that CMSes may seem complicated when you start using them but they will save you a big headache. They will also attract more customers to you because they can edit the content of their website!
I have developed an Easy, Open Source CMS that I sell along with my website designs. At the moment it is really small and compact and mainly easy to use. You can check it out here.
Why re-invent the wheel? Well for me there were a few reasons.
1. To prove that I could do it and to further my skills in the progress.
2. To have ultimate control over everything that's happening. I know about every single piece of code in the thing and there's no processing of unrelated code.
3. So that I can let others use it If they disagree with me and don't want to re-invent the wheel!
I have developed an Easy, Open Source CMS that I sell along with my website designs. At the moment it is really small and compact and mainly easy to use. You can check it out here.
Why re-invent the wheel? Well for me there were a few reasons.
1. To prove that I could do it and to further my skills in the progress.
2. To have ultimate control over everything that's happening. I know about every single piece of code in the thing and there's no processing of unrelated code.
3. So that I can let others use it If they disagree with me and don't want to re-invent the wheel!
timbertens
New Member
Hello,
CMS's are here to stay. Just like in the past it became clear that when creating a website it was better to split up the actual content and the layout, it is clear that it should not involve somebody with technical knowledge to update a website (whatever the 'update' might be).
CMS's can be hard to work with, sometimes not really user-friendly but there is plenty of choice (a bit too much actually) you'll always be able to find a CMS that suits your needs.
99% of the websites we create use a CMS as back-end as it would be far to labour-intensive (read: costly) to develop each and everytime all functionalities from scratch. We have used ExpressionEngine with success last 12 months and have chosen this CMS as our main solution because of 3 primary reasons:
- We are given 100% flexibility in the graphic design using ExpressionEngine
- The built-in functionality is more than enough to do all day to day task without custom development
- For the end-users it fairly simple and straightforward to work with the backend.
CMS's are here to stay. Just like in the past it became clear that when creating a website it was better to split up the actual content and the layout, it is clear that it should not involve somebody with technical knowledge to update a website (whatever the 'update' might be).
CMS's can be hard to work with, sometimes not really user-friendly but there is plenty of choice (a bit too much actually) you'll always be able to find a CMS that suits your needs.
99% of the websites we create use a CMS as back-end as it would be far to labour-intensive (read: costly) to develop each and everytime all functionalities from scratch. We have used ExpressionEngine with success last 12 months and have chosen this CMS as our main solution because of 3 primary reasons:
- We are given 100% flexibility in the graphic design using ExpressionEngine
- The built-in functionality is more than enough to do all day to day task without custom development
- For the end-users it fairly simple and straightforward to work with the backend.
rarepearldesign
New Member
I shouldn't have said "why reinvent the wheel" without adding "each time" on the end. There are cases to develop a custom CMS for a project for sure!! I do it lots with asp.net projects.
Also, ExpressionEngine is just plain kick-ass...good choice.