from where to start

[jaipandya]

Hi all
I am totally new to this world of web designing. I don't have any web page of mine but i want to create. But i want some good idea...........from where do i start. Which subject do i take. which software do i use..............everything from base.

[Chroder]

I'd suggest taking a look at the HTML Primer (http://www.htmlgoodies.com/primers/basics.html) from HTML Goodies. Every webmaster needs to know about HTML, even if you end up using a WYSIWYG editor like Dreamweaver.

[AainaA]

you could also start by asking yourself, the 5 Ws

1. Why do I need a site
2. When do I need to implement this site
3. Where would I host this site
4. Whom am I going to "rant/rave" about on this site
5. What am I going to do to make it a reality

Of course you could ask other questions as well, and you might even want to consider studying other sites, and see elements of color fusion before coming up with a pseudo-flow of what you're gonna do..

you might also want to consider looking at...
http://www.sitepoint.com/cat/design-and-layout

later,

[ian]

1. Decide what the site will be about and its purpose.
2. Build the site, easier when you use an editor like microsoft frontpage or macromedia dreamweaver.
3. Upload the website to a web hosting server using a FTP program like cuteftp or wsftp.
4. Start promoting your website via search engines and other means.

[AainaA]

and if your site needs boosting with traffic, and it deals with design, webmeistering and Computer, Web Hosting, Domain Name, + Search Engine, click here (http://www.buylinks.com/) to boost it!

you might also want to consider dropping by here (http://www.aainaa.com/links.php?c=weblinks&s=count&w=desc), for links to creating a better site :p

later

[zkiller]

SPAM! :p

anyways, i agree with a little of all that has been said above. a good place to start would be to get a cheap html book and start learning the basics of it. it's really simple and most any book should do just fine.

then, decide what the topic of your web site will be. a site with any real direction isn't really attractive to most users, but rather confussing.

as far as hosting goes, for starters i would stick with one of the free hosting services, such as freeserver.com. also, i recommend wsftp for uploading your files, but any of the others will work just fine as well.

as far as front page and other such editors go, most are very helpfull tools and will make your day go much smoother, however, i must say.... "stay away from front page!!!". personally i preffer dreamweaver by macromedia, but there are some good free ones out there as well that write good clean code for you.

[AainaA]

if you can get a copy of Netscape Gold, you could try out the composer and then look at the source. Its easier and faster to learn that way. Also, don't be afraid to experiment. You may want to also try sites related to Javascripting and Applets if you're adventurous later on

[zkiller]

javascript almost made me flunk a class once... all my code was fine and neither me nor my professor could figure out why it did not work. anyways, i copied all the code into a new file and it worked fine. *shrug*

that was the last time i ever really used to again (with the exeption of pop-up's on links and the likes of course).

[jaipandya]

work started

[therion]

Ehehe, good luck to u jaipandya. just my 2cents, u might wanna start with html, a site i would like to suggest http://www.w3schools.com very nice tutorials. Then get some photoshop crash course. get familiar with this very famous program. Then hands on urs very own website. :) for some idea, u might consider to view www.dw.dk .

[MatW]

We can help you with your needs, visit our website at http://www.IWebmasters.com and you can contact me at johnW@iwebmasters.com tnx!

[ldburroughs]

Focus on what you hope to accomplish with the site. Frontpage has come a long way and is the perfect solution for entry to intermediate level web design. There is no reason to "stay away" from it unless you are beyond the intermediate level. For most applications it will provide more than what you need. Additionally, its interface is much more intuitive than Dreamweaver and other more sophisticated programs. I wholeheartedly agree that Dreamweaver is a fantastic product but I vehemently disagree with the "stay away from" stance mounted against Frontpage.

I must say I am by no means an advanced webmaster. I'm in law school and do it as a hobby mostly to communicate with my friends and family. Assess your needs, then determine what tools are required. You may not need the power of Dreamweaver. You may end up equiping a metaphorical pizza delivery shop with a fleet of Ferraris.

[zkiller]

I must say I am by no means an advanced webmaster. I'm in law school and do it as a hobby mostly to communicate with my friends and family. Assess your needs, then determine what tools are required. You may not need the power of Dreamweaver. You may end up equiping a metaphorical pizza delivery shop with a fleet of Ferraris.
it's not really about the power of dreamweaver, frontpage or even notpad! it's about the quality of the code. there is a reason dreamweaver has a function specifically to clean code.

just open frontpage and start a new page and then without making any changes to this new blank page, go and look at the amount of code you already have. that's what makes frontpage so undesirable.

on the other hand, most of us started out with frontpage and eventually moved on as we learned how to write actual code.

all i am saying is, if you can, try and avoide frontpage and word for your web design needs. there are lots of free html and WYSIWYG editors out there, that may not look as fancy or have as many features, but will still do a much better job IMHO.

[ldburroughs]

That makes a lot of sense. I would agree that one should avoid Frontpage over a free or less expensive web authoring program if cost is an issue. I also agree that Frontpage is not as clean (although I never really looked into that before I read this thread.) The people who view my site, mostly friends and family, know even less than I about this sort of thing (that's really scary.) They just visit on occassion to see pictures of my daughter. The site suits my current needs. If I were doing this for a corporation or for others I would certainly look at other programs. In fact, I'd probably hire someone to do it because it would consume too much of my time creating and maintaining the site. Especially since it can be so easily scrutinized.

[StephanieCordray]

I can see both sides of this argument of frontpage vs dreamweaver, having used both and at times still use frontpage. At my level, I would vote hands down for Dreamweaver but I know it's not everybody's choicenor should it be for true beginners since it has a much steeper learning curve than many others. Frontpage may not be very clean code but it is easy to use. Depending on your needs for your site as ldburroughs stated earlier you may opt for that editor over others. If you buy the microsoft office suite for your business or whatever, it comes in some of the more complete packages without the cost of buying it separately. If such is the case, it's a good place to start. If not, and there are good alternatives for you that are free or at a much lower cost, that's the route I would take.

However, no wysiwig editor will ever replace html code knowledge. You can learn a lot by looking at how it's coded in your editor but there are also loads of sites on the internet with tutorials about HTML. It's something you can learn as you go, using an editor and tutorials.

[Vaelor]

Speaking as an obsessed anal retentive hand-coder, I can't endorse with any level of enthusiasm any WYSIWYG package, because I know the nightmare of trying to manual tidy up the digusting mess of code they inevitably produce.

If you know nothing about HTML, and getting your first site online is more of a hobby than a critically urgent priority, I'd strongly suggest skipping right to learning the HTML language yourself. You'll appreciate it in the long run rather than messing around with editors, and you'll have cut out the middle man and saved yourself a lot of time. If you're willing and able to do this, I strongly recommend a free tutorial site such as www.htmlgoodies.com (by far the best I've ever personally come across - has ever level of tutorial, from "What the heck is HTML?!", to more complex frames, tables, Javascript, style sheets, and so on... I still occasionally refer back to it myself when I forget how to do some little things, and I've been designed websites for over six years!) to guide you along the way.

If, however, you have zero interest in learning how to actually code properly and just want to bang a website together as quickly and simply as possible without learning the mechanics of it, the best WYSIWYG editor I ever came across was Allaire HomeSite (possibly since bought out by Macromedia, if it still exists at all..?). Failing that, I didn't mind DreamWeaver so much for functionality, and if I HAD to use a package now for god knows what reason, it would probably be that. Personally, I wouldn't touch Frontpage with a thousand foot pole, but that's just me.

Just my two cents worth anyway, hope it helps.

[zkiller]

very well put, vaelor! :) i agree 110% with you, but i am lazy and pressed for time, so dreamweaver has become my friend for the html/layout side of things. ;)

[StephanieCordray]

very well put, vaelor! :) i agree 110% with you, but i am lazy and pressed for time, so dreamweaver has become my friend for the html/layout side of things. ;)


that's me, too, although i don't do much designing except for my own site... but i do everything inside of dreamweaver, lots of time just from the code view tho because of php.. which still hates me most of the time, hehe.

[ian]

So Stephanie, are you mostly still involved with web hosting these days?

[Vaelor]

Well, I've got nothing but spare time these days, but I'm lazy, unmotivated, and unskilled, so generally I either outsource things, or they just don't get done (see www.undiscoveredlore.com for a prime example - that site has been around half a decade or so now!!).

But still, am too fussy/control freakish to ever use code from a WYSIWYG editor, it just gets under my skin. Every time I've tried, I'll make some tiny little change, like adding a Javascript hit counter, or some small insignificant thing like that, and the whole page layout will go out of whack. So these days, it's hand coding, or no coding. =)

Mind you, I can bang out a basic HTML page in 5-20 minutes max now depending on length, so it's no huge deal. Getting the motivation to sit down and do it, now that's another matter. =P

[Vaelor]

Oh BTW Ian, I can't find the thread in which I saw somebody mention this previously, but your sig looks screwy to me too, and I'm running Netscape 7 in 1280x1024, so whoever commented on it last time, it's not just Firefox and it's not just their res. Something's just not right there. =)

[ian]

I know all too well what you mean by a lack of motivation.
How about now, does the signature still look out of place?

[zkiller]

your sig looks good to me now. it was chris and i that mentioned it last time. ;)

[Vaelor]

I know all too well what you mean by a lack of motivation.
How about now, does the signature still look out of place?
Ian, as somebody who has taken the time to set up, administrate, and participate in five seperate forums, I'd say you have somewhere around 3,000 times the motivation I do. If you like, I can show you four more "Coming Soon" style pages similar to the one on Undiscovered Lore (http://www.undiscoveredlore.com/) to emphasise the comparison? =)

But no, the sig looks spot on now. Good work. =)

[ldburroughs]

I already know by the type of responses posted here that many, if not all of you will disagree, but for the sake of someone new reading I cannot help myself. Other than messy code, which no one other than web writers look at, I can't see why you "wouldn't touch Frontpage with a thousand foot pole." So far no real good reasons have been offered. For a beginner or a hobbyist, Frontpage is very intuitive. I've never had a casual guest or family member visit my site and say, "by the way, I looked at your coding and boy is it a mess. What are you using, Frontpage?" That just seems abusrd. For a hobbyist (not a hardcore hobbyist, mind you) there is nothing wrong with Frontpage if your end goal is a decent site to share with friends and family. Not everyone is interested in learning to code and, quite honestly, it would be a colosal waste of time. When my daughter was born I had one objective with the website. I wanted to communicate with friends and family, not show off my coding skills. After all, I'm finishing law school and don't have the time to waste learning and entering code just so I can say I wrote it all by myself without using a Microsoft product. So, for those who are just starting I would highly recommend Frontpage because it is simple and will yield great results with little or no effort on your part. You don't have to write code to make a website.

On the otherhand . . . if that is your goal, then by all means, learn to write the code yourself. If your hobby is coding websites, learn to code. If your hobby is maintaining a website for friends and family, use a wysiwyg program. Just don't assume coding is the only way to get things done. It's what people see when they type in your web address that counts, not what you used to create it. Assess your goals and execute a plan that will help you achieve them. Frontpage is cheap and does the trick.

[Vaelor]

I already know by the type of responses posted here that many, if not all of you will disagree, but for the sake of someone new reading I cannot help myself. Other than messy code, which no one other than web writers look at, I can't see why you "wouldn't touch Frontpage with a thousand foot pole." So far no real good reasons have been offered. For a beginner or a hobbyist, Frontpage is very intuitive. I've never had a casual guest or family member visit my site and say, "by the way, I looked at your coding and boy is it a mess. What are you using, Frontpage?" That just seems abusrd. For a hobbyist (not a hardcore hobbyist, mind you) there is nothing wrong with Frontpage if your end goal is a decent site to share with friends and family. Not everyone is interested in learning to code and, quite honestly, it would be a colosal waste of time. When my daughter was born I had one objective with the website. I wanted to communicate with friends and family, not show off my coding skills. After all, I'm finishing law school and don't have the time to waste learning and entering code just so I can say I wrote it all by myself without using a Microsoft product. So, for those who are just starting I would highly recommend Frontpage because it is simple and will yield great results with little or no effort on your part. You don't have to write code to make a website. On the otherhand . . . if that is your goal, then by all means, learn to write the code yourself. If your hobby is coding websites, learn to code. If your hobby is maintaining a website for friends and family, use a wysiwyg program. Just don't assume coding is the only way to get things done. It's what people see when they type in your web address that counts, not what you used to create it. Assess your goals and execute a plan that will help you achieve them. Frontpage is cheap and does the trick.

Yeah, that's... well, pretty much what I already said. Hand code if you're serious about web design as a long term thing, WYSIWYG it if you just want to make a hobby site.

My main point was that if you plan to make many websites over the course of your life, you'll appreciate later that you took the time to learn HTML in the beginning, rather than creating a lot of messy code that sure, your grandmother and her cat may not care much about, but you might in the future if you decide to turn your hobby page into an online business, for example. Also, so might slow dialup users (granted, a small minority these days, but still a consideration) when they have to download your 400Kb page of garbage code instead of a tidy 4k instantly appearing site. =)

If you just want to put a photo of your children online to show your mother though, there are many great online web building sites for newbies with which you can build your page right there in your browser window when you sign up for your free hosting page. If we're talking about an absolutely zero interest in technical computing, "What's a CGI script?", essentially computer illiterate end user who just wants to scratch his name on the tree of cyberspace, I'd recommend one of these as the absolutely easiest way to get a homepage online without having to learn anything or be challenged in any way. Or even having to pay money for a web design package you only wanted to use to make a one page hobby site on Geocities. =)

And as for my personal dislike for Frontpage, I don't know about anybody else, but I made it fairly clear it was simply a personal dislike - I don't need to give reasons. I don't like mushrooms either - it's just who I am. I've used Notepad, I've used Homesite, I've used Dreamweaver, and I've used Frontpage, and it's purely personal preference that I rank them in that order for my own needs. I don't suggest at any point that a hobbyist with no interest whatsoever in serious web design crack open Vi on a Linux box and start coding their own PHP pages, but I'm not a hobbyist - I do things my way because it's the way I like them. {shrugs}

To each their own, of course, I just wanted to reiterate that having learnt the hard way myself, I firmly advise against relying on WYSIWYG programs, particularly ones that are reknowned in the industry for producing the most bloated unmanagable code, if you plan to work on websites long term. HTML is not like C++ - it's extremely simple to learn, and worth it if you plan to use it on more than a handful of websites. However, if you just want to put your homepage online, or are adverse to learning new things, or even just prefer to do things "the easy way" instead of obsessively professionally, then by all means, a WYSIWYG editor is definately for you.

[ldburroughs]

Tone is sometimes a hard thing to manage in written messages. I was just trying to balance the "I wouldn't touch Frontpage" comments with something positive. I meant no offense. I have just read a lot here about bloated code and think it really doesn't make that much of a difference. The common person who types in the address just wants a clean, good looking interface. I also realize it is your personal prefernce but the original post needs more than blind personal preferences. If a casual hobbyist wants something that will yield clean, visually impressive results, then Frontpage will do the trick. I've looked at a lot of other sites that could use some help with presentation. The code may not be bloated, but the site is a visual mess. That's all I was trying to say.

Again, sorry if any of this is taken personally. I'm just trying to initiate a fair and balanced discussion. I too, am concerned with a professional presentation. That's why I chose Frontpage over something free like "geocities". I'm assuming messy or bloated code equates to a slower loading page. That would be a con to discuss if the time lag were truly significant. The average end user doesn't care what you used to make the site. It all comes down to how it looks and how well things work.

[Vaelor]

Tone is sometimes a hard thing to manage in written messages. I was just trying to balance the "I wouldn't touch Frontpage" comments with something positive. I meant no offense.

None taken whatsoever. Just wanted to emphasise that my reason for not choosing Frontpage myself was a matter of personal preference only, and not something I could explain/justify sufficiently to a web design newbie beyond "Well, it creates really awful code...". =)

Just because I wouldn't touch it, doesn't mean I'm insisting that nobody in the world ever should. I just personally see no place for it, between tidier WYSIWYG packages like Dreamweaver, and much simpler, cheaper, and quicker solutions, like using the inbuilt WYSIWYG editors that almost all free hosting companies provide these days anyway (working on the assumption that somebody who just wanted to put a hobby homepage online wouldn't go so far as to pay server hosting fees - or, for that matter, probably know what a webserver was!).

Just one man's opinion, just throwing another two cents worth in, so to speak. As you said, tone can be hard to manage on a written medium - I apologise if I came across as abrupt or offended while clarifying my points there. =)

[zkiller]

hmmm... i thought i stated where i stand with frontpage and why earlier in this thread. :shrug:

nobody is saying that frontpage is not a viable option for newbies, but honestly, buying an html book (my first was called "learn html in 10 minutes" :P) would be cheaper, if that is your concern. i have also stated, that you can download free applications that don't have the downfalls of frontpage, however, commenly don't have as many bells and whistles.

the opinions stated by each user here regarding frontpage are from a professional stand point, rather then from the stand point of someone with no real interest in web design. it's kind of like comparing a car enthusiasts opinion on cars, to someone that just wants something to get from point a to b. either option will do the job, but one will do it much better. see what i'm trying to say?

if you ask me a question regarding anything on the topics of web design and web development, i will answer with what i think is best, not with what i find to "just get the job done".

like i mentioned above, i am not trying to rule out frontpage completely as an option, but if you ask me what i think, to me it wouldn't be an option.

hmmm... i really don't know what else to say really. i appologize, if any of what i have said earlier, or in this post, offended you, as that was not my intent. i am just to give you my honest opinion and i think i tried to stay fairly objective about it.

also, many of those poorly designed sites you mention are done with various WYSIWYG editors as well. it's rather sad really, as many of those sites have some great information on them, yet it is skipped due to the lack of visual stimulation, which gives us the preception of professionalism, or the lack there of.

[Vaelor]

Actually, zkiller makes an excellent point. This being a Web Design Forum, the majority of people responding to an inquiry about how to go about creating a website are speaking from the POV of already being an experienced webmaster themselves, or at least familiar enough with the process to be able to assist somebody of a level to be asking that question.

Bearing in mind that the thread initiator did not specify whether the site was to be a hobby homepage or, for want of a better term, "important", I think it's fair to assume that the enquirer would want to be advised of the best possible solution, not just the bare minimum based on an unfounded assumption that they probably only want to put a Geocities page up for their mom to see. =)

I know very little about cars, and if I walked into a car dealership and said "I want to buy a car, what should I do?", I'd like to hope that the guy would try to sell me one of the best cars in the lot, not just the cheapest piece of junk on the assumption I only want to get from A to B. In fact, considering the used car industry, I could almost guarantee that if I said something that basic, they would almost certainly try and sucker me into buying something very fancy. =P

On the other hand, if I walked into the dealership and said "I have $7,500 to spend, and I'm looking for a car with a good sturdy engine that won't need a lot of work for some time, I don't mind too much about the quality of the body so long as there are no major dings or holes in it though. Oh, and I'd prefer a four door sedan of some sort, in red if possible. What can you recommend?", or if the initial thread poster had have said "I'm looking to create a website for my father, who sells tiny plastic American flags, and I'd like to help him open an online store so he can take orders from all over the world and broaden his business. I'll need a shopping cart system that I can link into his merchant account, and some basic photos of the products and text descriptions, with a brief history page about the business and so on. Where should I start?", then I'd imagine a much more specific, targeted, helpful set of responses would have been forthcoming.

As it stands though, if you say to most professional webmasters, "I want to make a website. How do I do this?", they're gunna say "Not with Frontpage!". =P

[ldburroughs]

You are correct. If you ask a professional webmaster how to create a website he/she will not offer the Frontpage solution. The person who started this post was obviously a novice and wanted a viable option for creating a website. Automatically assuming he/she wants to learn to code a website is a bit presumptious.

Most webmasters will avoid Frontpage because they are 1. either not familiar with its newest reincarnation and its vast improvements or 2. feel like it would be cheating not to do things the long, hard way (why do people insist on constantly reinventing the wheel?) Again, people viewing the site do not care how messy the code looks. That is what obsessive compulsive webmasters concern themselves with. The end user only cares about the overall design and user interface. End users are not impressed with clean code because they will not see it. You can achieve some pretty amazing results with Frontpage and that doesn't tend to make coders or die-hard Dreamweaver users happy. They have a hard time dealing with the fact that Microsoft actually created a useful product for novice/intermediate users. Webmasters are unhappy because it has become too easy to create a compelling website. I'm sorry but it is not necessary to code a website or waste time learning to use an advanced program to make a site these days. What's more important is the overall presentation of the site. I've seen more poor examples of hand coded sites than I have of sites created using Frontpage.

By the way, I'll discontinue visiting this portion of the site so you can all make yourselves feel good about your hard work and accomplishments. You don't seem interested in a discussion that disagrees with the status quo. For the average user (including small business owners) it is a waste of time to learn to code when applications like Frontpage do the job (and do it well) for you. You can easily achieve a professional looking site in a fraction of the time - so you can concentrate on more important things - like running your business. If you are a small business owner or individual hobbyist . . . do consider using Frontpage. Despite what the "professional webmasters" write, it is a great product and worthy of further investigation. I don't work for Microsoft. I have used Frontpage since FP2002 and currently use FP2003 for my personal site. There are a number of inexpesive solutions that will yield better results for you than trying to hand code or using a product that is beyond your needs. If you want to become a "webmaster" and do it for a living, then learn to hand code and learn to use Dreamweaver. Otherwise, don't waster your time.

Please feel free to make any comments as I will not monitor your responses. If you need help with a professional looking web solution that will not consume your precious time and resources, e-mail me and I will help you get started for free. The people here can help you if you want to switch careers and devote your life to becoming a "webmaster". Please open your minds a little. There is more than one way to make a site. If the same results can be achieved by using a program like Frontpage in a fraction of the time, why bother? There are still people that think taking notes by hand is better than typing on a laptop. These are the people that never learned to type and still use the two finger method. For them handwriting works. Of course, these are the same people that lean over to the typist and ask, "what did he just say?"

[StephanieCordray]

Hi all
I am totally new to this world of web designing. I don't have any web page of mine but i want to create. But i want some good idea...........from where do i start. Which subject do i take. which software do i use..............everything from base.

Okay, to put it back in perspective above is the original post... he/she did ask about learning but also about software. He/she got differing opinions on all types of software and places to learn. so guys, give it a rest and help this person. Obviously he/she is quite new to the whole web "thang" and is looking for some truly beginner help. Afterwards if you want to keep wrangling the issue, take it to another thread... I'll enjoy the debate.

[StephanieCordray]

Oh, yeah, somewhere in the midst of the debate, both AA and I gave a bit of support for Frontpage because of it's user friendliness for beginners but they seemed to have been overlooked in the continuing debate.

[StephanieCordray]

So Stephanie, are you mostly still involved with web hosting these days?


Yup, that is what I do, lol. That and follow a few hobbies as I work on the business. I missed this question in the beginning because of the ongoing debate. I'm sorry for the late reply.

[ian]

I used Frontpage when I started, the reason I didnt like it, was because whilst things would look ok in internet explorer, they used to look crap in other browsers. And yes that is a big issue. The cross browser compatibility was not very good in the earlier versions of frontpage, I dont know whether that problem has since been addressed.

[Vaelor]

By the way, I'll discontinue visiting this portion of the site so you can all make yourselves feel good about your hard work and accomplishments.

I'm right, you're all wrong, and now I'm not listening anymore? Wow, flamebait much? How remarkably childish.

I'm fighting the urge to point out the remarkable hypocrisy in this idiotic post that fails to explain any real merits of Frontpage other than "Who cares if it produces crap code, it's easy to use!". But as Stephanie said, realistically this isn't the place for this debate. The original poster (who, incidentally, probably hasn't even glanced in at this thread since saying "work started"!) did specify that they wanted to know "everything from base", which includes the ups and downs of hand coding vs. WYSIWYG - one shouldn't make the assumption that just because they're new to web design, they must need idiot proof beginner software and baby steps. I didn't get into web design with Frontpage - I muddled through Netscape Composer until discovering Allaire Homesite, in the beginning. Some people don't need to be spoon fed.

Anyways, I'm rambling already on a topic I just said I'd leave well enough alone. Apols folks - I have a pet hate for hypocrites and can sometimes be easily flamebaited...

Dropping this now. =)

[Chroder]

Most webmasters will avoid Frontpage because they are 1. either not familiar with its newest reincarnation and its vast improvements or 2. feel like it would be cheating not to do things the long, hard way (why do people insist on constantly reinventing the wheel?) Again, people viewing the site do not care how messy the code looks. That is what obsessive compulsive webmasters concern themselves with. The end user only cares about the overall design and user interface. End users are not impressed with clean code because they will not see it. You can achieve some pretty amazing results with Frontpage and that doesn't tend to make coders or die-hard Dreamweaver users happy. They have a hard time dealing with the fact that Microsoft actually created a useful product for novice/intermediate users. Webmasters are unhappy because it has become too easy to create a compelling website. I'm sorry but it is not necessary to code a website or waste time learning to use an advanced program to make a site these days. What's more important is the overall presentation of the site. I've seen more poor examples of hand coded sites than I have of sites created using Frontpage.

I hand code because I'm more comfortable with it. I feel like I have more control then I would with a WYSIWYG editor. It has nothing to do with pride in doing things the "long hard way". I've said it before and I'll say it again, it often takes me longer to get a page looking the way I want it when using a WYSIWYG editor then if I were to hand code it.

And liking Dreamweaver, for example, has nothing to do with the company that produces it. I'll be the first to admit that the latest edition of FP is the best yet, but it still doesn't compare to some of the other editors out there. For newbie hobbiest? Sure. But you are generalizing the entire webmaster community! I just opened up a page of mine in the latest FP and it was rambled beyond belief. FP doesn't seem to like CSS much, which just happens to be the biggest design technology to come by in a long time.

So to sum things up, not everyone is a hobbiest newbie that can take the crap that FP throws at us. There is a line where a tool crosses over from helpful into annoyance. It may be fine for you, good. But don't jump down our throat for disliking something that you happen to like.

[StephanieCordray]

I used Frontpage when I started, the reason I didnt like it, was because whilst things would look ok in internet explorer, they used to look crap in other browsers. And yes that is a big issue. The cross browser compatibility was not very good in the earlier versions of frontpage, I dont know whether that problem has since been addressed.

It has been to a great extent since FP2002, the newer versions are supposed to be even better... I have a friend who makes a very good living at web development who raves about the newest version... so much I'm going to have to try it out eventually... maybe now the holidays are over, hehe.

[StephanieCordray]

There is a line where a tool crosses over from helpful into annoyance.



That does tend to happen with most who start out with Frontpage. I can't vouch for this newest version... I thought it had support for CSS? Didn't know that... hmmm... maybe I don't want to shell out the money for it just yet then.

That's one of things that Dreamweaver does for me.. I can take a generic css, pull it up in dreamweaver, make changes, add classes to it, and so on.... without nearly as many typos as I would have if I did it all from notepad.

[Chroder]

The latest FP is not bad at CSS, but there are some things it cannot handle at all. The page I loaded was a 100% CSS design and it had some trouble rendering it live. For example, hidden layers were displayed, background positions were ignored and widths were screwed up when I typed extra text in. I can only imagine how long it would take me to make my page work if I started from scratch in FP.

The new FP is the best one by far, not as many quirks and bugs, no more proprietary IE code (that I can see), nice interface -- but if someone had to go from DW->FP, I think they'd whine a lot :p

[StephanieCordray]

Well, yeah but I have a few clients who use FP to make little changes in between me making the big changes so I suppose it might be worth getting the newest version at some point.

[zkiller]

when i read the above post by ldburroughs yesterday, i had to keep myself from replieing. i felt as if everything i have said in reply to his posts here and in other threads has been ignored and words had been planted in my mouth that i at no point said. but i will not go there, since the respective party doesn't care to here anything i say as it is anyways.

however, i will say that i agree with what chroder pointed out in his last two posts.

[Vaelor]

when i read the above post by ldburroughs yesterday, i had to keep myself from replieing. i felt as if everything i have said in reply to his posts here and in other threads has been ignored and words had been planted in my mouth that i at no point said. but i will not go there, since the respective party doesn't care to here anything i say as it is anyways.

I hear ya there buddy. Me, I've been biting my tongue, so to speak, since his last post, and continue to do so. My rational mind can see he's just a troll and that the post was clearly flamebait, but my emotional side is itching to post about two dozen retorts and sarcastic replies. I admit, I do have a weakness for being drawn into flamewars far too easily, but I'm trying hard to be a good little forum user here! =D

There were just so many completely illogical points in that post that it's clear to anybody that as you said, all of our points and posts had been completely ignored, and it was in fact him taking the "I'm right and screw other options!" stance that he was implying we had. I hate hypocrites.

Anyways, looks like there's another thread for design package comparisons now, so I guess this discussion should be moved over there anyway. Besides, I believe the original thread starter here never came back after their second post, so this really is an utterly irrelevant thread in and of itself now anyway. =P

[zkiller]

i wouldn't call this thread irrelevant, as everything posted in here will become part of the archives. even with our little debate, there is some good and usable information to be found here.

I do not believe he is a troll, but i do feel as if he wasn't listening to what i had to say. or should i say, read what i had to write. :p

[genspur]

I believe the original thread starter here never came back after their second post, so this really is an utterly irrelevant thread in and of itself now anyway. =P

altho the first part of that sentence may be true, the second part is patently false! towit, it has been an immensely informative discussion IMHO as i too am a newbie formerly lurking for info on how to proceed with my webpage ideas...

so basically i'm just hoping that y'all will stick around here for further discussion... otherwise i shall start yet another "newbie looking for advice" thread and pester u that way :p ...

i really appreciate the links to sites on learning html that everyone has posted both here and in the other thread about editors... thx! i have not yet chkd them out, but have referenced them for future use.

ok, so, if anyone is still interested in continuing this thread, i'll b/b to ask some more specific questions... gotta go now... baby is calling "mama! mama!"... ciao.

[StephanieCordray]

so basically i'm just hoping that y'all will stick around here for further discussion... otherwise i shall start yet another "newbie looking for advice" thread and pester u that way :p ...



A bunch of us call this home so I think you can expect us to be around for a long time, ;)

[Vaelor]

altho the first part of that sentence may be true, the second part is patently false! towit, it has been an immensely informative discussion IMHO as i too am a newbie formerly lurking for info on how to proceed with my webpage ideas...Insofar as the demand outweighs the supply of topically appropriate information, I shall inasmuch as I am able within the constraints of my knowledge, relinquish said knowledge in the form of aforementioned topically appropriate information, for any and all threads in which I hold a thread subscription status; ergo, pending the continued participation of other parties using said medium to request information, ongoing participation by me in said threads will be assured. >=)

In other words, any thread I've posted in before, I'll keep posting in if somebody asks a question there and nobody else answers it before I get there. =P

[zkiller]

A bunch of us call this home so I think you can expect us to be around for a long time, ;)
i'm with stephanie on this one. :)

glad you found the information within this thread helpfull genspur.

[AainaA]

he sounded very... what's the word again?

[StephanieCordray]

Which he sounded how?

[AainaA]

i still can't find the word to describe it... where is he btw?

[zkiller]

if mean me, i am around as usual. :)

[genspur]

A bunch of us call this home so I think you can expect us to be around for a long time, ;)

eggsellent! as u can plainly see i am "not a computing professional" (no avatar, no fancy sig... very sad really...) but i'm trying to learn as much as i can (note: learns how to do a quote the "official" way by 2nd post! hehheh)

my first project will be to design a local parenting website to act as a clearinghouse for all of our (smaller) city's parent/kid resources. i've stolen, err, got some ideas from other parenting sites and i've been slowly amassing all the relevant local content.

i've just finished a short-course on html at a local nite-school and i was pretty disappointed - i had learned more doing some free, online tutorials (eg: http://visualtutorials.com/html.htm?find-start_your_own_webpage)

ok, so, i was interested in getting a copy of Allaire HomeSite but all links seem to lead to macromedia as i guess it is now a part of DW (i realize now that this does not = DishWashing! can u tell i'm a SAHM???)... does anyone have a link to a earlier, downloadable version?? HomeSite appealed to me because it seemed a nice way to wean oneself off of WYSIWYG gradually... pls correct this idea if i'm wrong...

alright, i think that's enuf babbling for now... thx again for all your replies... esp vaelor... heh,heh!

[zkiller]

yup, allaire was purchased by marcomedia a while back and parts of homesite have made their way into dreamweaver. sorry, but i do not know of any place that still have a downloadable (legal) version of homesite.

[AainaA]

all allaire.com sites now point to mm, so even if you look at the results {http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient-menuext&ie=UTF-8&q=%22Allaire+HomeSite%22} you'd have the reviews et all, but points leading to MM

[genspur]

drat! ok, thx for trying to help me... i guess i'm not sure which editor to use now... i understand that DW is the preferred choice, but i think it's more than i can "chew on" at this particular time... i'm curious about HoTMetaL Pro 5.0 ... altho i recall a brief negative comment about it somewhere around here... so at the risk of opening that whole can-o-worms again, cud i get some specific comments/criticisms about that one? TIA...

[zkiller]

you may also want to look into netscape composer, as it's free. just to get you started. :) i believe it comes as part of the netscape suite, or at least that's the way it used to come. i've been around to long... lol

[genspur]

you may also want to look into netscape composer, as it's free. just to get you started. :)

oh, free u say? that's always a good starting point... thx for the suggestion. i have also found a free version of HoTMetaL that i am going to play around with - altho i grew very weary while reading the install instructions last nite... therefore it remains uninstalled.

i'm also not sure who suggested the http://www.htmlgoodies.com/ site for html tutorials, but it is fantastic-o! i've only read a few articles there but am very impressed... thx for the link whoever it was!

ciao!